Kristi McVee
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[00:00:00] [00:01:00] Oh, goodness me.
Thank you so much for joining us, Christy McVie. Look, I made that rhyme. Um, it's so great to have you on the podcast for a second time. It is honestly such an important role and such an important topic that you share on. And I know it's cost you a lot personally to go into this role and be this person, um, in, in your personal life, but it's such a massive message and.
Educators would be, um, very hard pressed to not know, um, the, that this is coming up within our profession more frequently, and people are being found out for being predators within early childhood education, and I just think it's too an important conversation to not have. So so much for coming, uh, onto the Big Hutter [00:02:00] Podcast.
Again, you're our first person to be here for two times now, so thank you. Yay! Yeah. I'm special. You are, you are. We've just been chatting for an hour before we recorded this. I know, it's hopeless, isn't it? We got all the chat, chat, chat out, so now we can get straight down to business. So, we were just talking about, um, Some things that have happened and have come up in the last little while, but do you want to sort of give us a bit of an overview as to, um, the last maybe year or two of things that have started to move within the early childhood education realm?
Yeah, sure. Well, I, I think also it's, it would be important to note that I think within the child sexual abuse. Uh, space and, and what we're seeing there has been a huge amount of, uh, uh, studies and movement in what we're [00:03:00] seeing and how we're identifying stuff. And one of the things that I would say is it's not just early childhood.
Right now, it's schools, it's it's anywhere that there's young people and there's been some real big changes, um, that have occurred because of it. So. Uh, it might feel like there's a big spotlight on early childhood, but I, I would want to caveat that and say it's not just early childhood. It's anywhere that there's young children and young people in any kind of capacity with adults, you know, looking after them, supervising them, teaching them, et cetera.
So, um, and, and it's about time if, if I'm going to be frank, because personally for me. You know, when I became a police officer in 2010 and, you know, went through becoming a specialist child interviewer and becoming, and becoming child abuse detective up until probably the last three or four years, we weren't talking about this stuff and, and, and you might have known about it because you might have had a friend or a family member who might have been abused, but we [00:04:00] weren't being very open and honest and truthful in, you know, Like in the media, in public, we weren't having these conversations in our homes or with our friends or with our coworkers.
So it's a, it's really about time that we started having these conversations in these spaces and it's for the better. Yeah, a hundred percent, a hundred percent, like, we all know that it happens, but I think the horrificness of it, is that even a word? Um, I think how horrific it is, and the long term damage, and the generational damage that comes with it.
It's really confronting to, to talk about, but nothing will ever change if we don't change, and if we don't address the way we deal with it, and that's why, uh, it's, it's so important, and like it's, it, there's no denying that it's happening. I mean, we, I focus on early childhood because that's where I am.
Your, your picture of it is so [00:05:00] much broader than what mine is. But I mean, we, we just had that guy, I don't even want to talk, say his name, um, where he was charged with, what did you say? 1600. Yeah, it was something like 1, 693 offences, and I mean, that seems like outrageously large to most people, but every time he, I mean, and he was preying on young babies and children for over a decade.
Um, and no doubt now that his name's out in the world, more victims will come forward. But, you know, unfortunately, you know, when someone has that opportunity to abuse for that long, there's going to be a list and a, and a, and a pile of victims behind him. Um, you know, and it's not. It's not uncommon. I mean, they, they, before, like, there's some statistics and some, and some studies there that say that, you know, before a child sex offender is [00:06:00] actually first charged, they would have had 10 years of offending under their belt, generally, like, on average.
Yeah, and I mean, this is a really hard topic, and I'm sorry to anyone, and I, you know, content warning, we're talking about child sexual abuse and, and, The reason why we need to talk about this is because we need to make our kids safer and we can't hide behind, we can't hide behind that it doesn't happen to my kid or not my kid or not my family because it's every kid, every family.
Um, you know, one in four Australians are a victim of child sexual abuse. And that is statistics coming out from the Australian Child Maltreatment Study that happened in April, was released in April. And they were able to say. you know, through that study, that 28. 5 percent of Australians have been abused and sexually.
So, you know, you think, okay, every home has, you know, most homes have two children and two adults. One of those people potentially will be abused. [00:07:00] Um, and you know, the statistics are one in three girls and one in five boys will be sexually abused by the time they reach 18. So what we know is that it's not.
Someone else's family. It's every family and we can't just hide behind it. And interestingly, when you open these conversations up in the community and with people, what you'll find is. There's always someone that comes forward and says, yeah, it happened to me and I don't know, you know, personally, I work in this space, like you said, and I just have to bring it up in conversation on a, on a tick tock live or a tick tock or an Instagram.
And I will have message after message after message of people who are disclosing their abuse. And so I guess, you know, the thing we need to realize is it's not. other people. It's our, it's the people we know, the people we love, the people we care about. Well, when we're talking about the statistic of one in four, we work with four [00:08:00] children in, in family daycare.
So that's one of those children potentially. Um, it's just like you, like my brain, like that is so far, I'm lucky I never experienced it. Um, my children haven't experienced it that I'm aware of, um, and my husband hasn't experienced it either. Um, there is a family member who I know has, but that was even before I was.
I think, or not long after I was born. So it wasn't in my sphere of, you know, awareness. So for me, it's such a foreign concept and it's so horrifying when I hear stories and I listened to the podcast Task Force Argos or about Task Force Argos and the podcast was called The Children in the Pictures. And.
Yeah. It was so distressing, like, it [00:09:00] was incredible to listen to how they went about finding these people and how they uncovered them and, and that sort of stuff, and the main offender that was the kingpin on this entire circle was, worked for South Australian families. Yeah. For foster children. I can't tell you how many people I've arrested and charged that have been in positions of authority and power over children and it's because, uh, they will be attracted to those positions which puts them in con, in contact with children.
And a couple of things, and I mean it might help you understand, it might make you scared, but a couple of things to understand is that not all child sex offenders are attracted to children. They, um, you know, so there's three types of sex offenders and there, there are the, the pedophilic. So they're attracted to children that were born that way.
And it's not an excuse at all to, because there are people attracted to children that will never hurt a child. [00:10:00] But they're born with an attraction to a child and that's who they're attracted to. Then there's the opportunistic. They have an attraction to children and to adults, or they might not even be attracted to children, but they, um, you know, that's.
They just are in a space where they can offend against a child for whatever reason, whatever perv, you know, perv, pervation they've got. And then there's the situational. These are the people who, something happens in their life, the world brought, the wheels fall off their life and they offend. Sorry. Sorry.
I had to pause it because my internet dropped. So, yeah, there's three types of child sex offenders, and a lot of people don't realise this, they just think people are attracted to children, right, but it's actually not the case, and through my experience as a detective and investigating these, um, I was able to identify that, you know, there's pedophilic or persistent, so they're born with an attraction to children, and they don't choose that attraction, it is what it is, [00:11:00] Um, and I will caveat that with, there's some people who are attracted to children never abuse children.
They know that it's wrong, they know that they don't do it. They're not, it's not something that they're forced to do, they choose to do it. And then secondly, um, there's opportunistic offenders, which, uh, you know, they might be, they have an attraction to, um, adults as well as children. And these are the type of offenders, and I would liken them with the, the stepdad.
Or the person who goes and dates a single mum, you know, and then they wait, they might be a stepdad for a few years and then they, their child, the child hits an age where they think it's okay to now abuse them. And I'm thinking prepubescent children, you know, or pubescent children, all of a sudden that 12 year old.
And then there's the situational offenders where something happens in their world. They might not be attracted to children, no attraction at all, but they, something happens in their life. Their, their marriage breaks up or they, they lose their job and they've lost control of their life and then they go and offend.
And [00:12:00] when, and for me personally, I mean, I've spent a lot of time in this space of, I, I. I'm a, I'm a white person. I want to know the why behind all of this. So I have spent so much time, you know, contemplating talking with sex offenders and stuff like that, that I'm able to sit with that and go, okay, because we know that now we can do something about that.
And, um, so that's what makes me, um, makes me share that with people is because when we know something now we can plan against it. So. Do people that are, like, the pedophiles that are born that way, do they admit it? I've had only, in my 10 years, I only had one man admit his sexual prevalent, like, his perversion, um, and his attraction to children.
And, um, generally, yeah, they're the ones who will say, um, you know, I can't. Help it like I'm actually attracted to children. I don't know why I'm like this, that they're the ones [00:13:00] who struggled. I wouldn't say they struggle the most. There is a, it's funny because there is, it takes a lot to, to harm someone.
Right. But from they don't just wake up one morning and go, I'm going to abuse a child. There is a lot that happens between there and there. So, they have to, first of all, they have to admit to themselves that they've got that attraction, or that they're a, you know, the situational offender, I believe, is the only one who just all of a sudden snaps and does something.
Um, but, but mind you, but there's been some stuff before that. There's been the thoughts, there's been the daydreams and the fantasizing. There might be some watching of pornography or some, um, Child exploitation material where they, so they've normalized it in their brain that it's okay to do that. Then there's, you know, then once they've got it in their mind that it's okay to offend against a child, then they've got to get a child to offend against if they haven't got one in their family.
So this is where that coming back to, you know, [00:14:00] these people who choose jobs that are actually around children is because they need a child to offend against because they've had all of this. This here, you know? And so these people who have gotten past all of those internal, um, you know, that internal dialogue and that internal 'cause, I mean, they know it's wrong.
Yeah. We all know it's wrong. Yeah. No one in the world except for children who don't know right and wrong if it's not taught to them, know that it's not okay to do this. Mm. So they have to get past that internal dialogue and in and argument, you know. And then they have to find a child. They have to get past the child in, um, you know, resistance or whatever.
So that's where grooming comes in. And then, and if there's a parent, you have to get past the parent. Or if you're the parent, then you don't have that problem. You got to get past, you know, the other parent or whatever. Or colleagues. Or colleagues, yeah, colleagues. And so there's a lot going on. Yeah, it's [00:15:00] not something that is easy and quick, but it is something that is easy and quick if that makes sense.
Like it's Yeah, no. So it's totally premeditated, it's, it's planned, and they're probably in a workplace setting checking out who's, who in the zoo, and um Very much so. working out who they can get away with things from, cultivating friendships where they're very manipulated. So people would go, no, no, no.
And it's not always just men either. Let's just be clear with that. It's not always men. Um, So it's not always men, but it's, but the, like we know from statistics and from studies that men around 97 percent of all child sexual abuse is by men, but it's not just men. And I do want to remind people that because if we don't remember that there is [00:16:00] female perpetrators out there and offenders out there, then we're missing a huge portion of victims and survivors and validating their experiences because there is a female perpetration.
Interestingly, female offenders are much more sadistic and much more, um, that they've got a different motivation to male offenders. So that's a whole other conversation. Is that, are you looking like, I didn't intend to go there, but are you looking more at like the, the female teacher taking that? Yeah, and pubescent girl, like there's been quite a few cases of female offenders against female girls, especially in, uh, recently in WA, there was one that was charged from 10 years ago where she offended against a child.
And again, Those people will empower and authority, right? If we don't question their behaviors, you know, inappropriate appropriate. It's not appropriate to have sort of, you know, I always use those words appropriate [00:17:00] inappropriate, you know, and I explain that to young people all the time. That's not appropriate behavior for an adult.
That's not appropriate. Or that's inappropriate behavior for an adult because one thing that, um, they get past is, Oh, I'm a teacher. It's my job to look after your kid. But unfortunately we know that teachers and people in those, and I'm not saying everyone, there is a lot of amazing teachers, childcare work at, you know, early, early childhood educators.
There's a lot of amazing people. But that, but people who want to offend against children or people who are attracted to children or people who like children are going to go into those jobs where children are. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. So we, we talked about like grooming a little bit. What does that actually look like?
What would that look like in an early childhood setting? I think because of the age of the children, it's a little bit easier, if that makes sense, for an offender in those situations, because they're changing [00:18:00] nappies, clothing, you know, in an older child, it's not as easy, or it's more obvious that someone's doing that, or maybe not.
But, you know, like, first of all, they've got to find a vulnerable child. So, unfortunately, children living with a disability are the highest. abused children because most of them don't need hands on support and help. So vulnerable children are also children without a support network. So it could be a child that, you know, it doesn't have a, you know, a very safe home life, or it could be a child that is very vulnerable and young and in early childhood, it is, you know, they're very young and vulnerable.
So, um, so that it, that could be feeling a need. So one of the ways that I say, um, people with little kids, especially little children, um, you know, they give them gifts, lollies. extra attention. Um, they are extremely attentive to that one child. They, they favor a [00:19:00] special child over all the other children kind of behavior.
Um, you know, think of that. And it's sad that I even have this experience, but I had a creepy uncle that was like that. And he was, you know, he had that one or two little kids that he was like, I've got a lolly for you and you know, that kind of, and so that child would always go to that uncle because he was always treating them special.
Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um. One of the things, like, why I, I wanted to get you back on, um, for anybody that may be watching the video, I am showing the, um, review of the child safety, um, arrangements, um, under the National Quality Framework. So that's the final report, the findings and recommendations for the NQF and interrelated child safety mechanisms.
Came out in December 2023. There's a raft, there's 16 changes in there that they go through and talk about what [00:20:00] they've noticed. They share statistics from previous years, um, all that kind of stuff. And it's not just, um, child sexual abuse, it's child safety. Um, and one of the things that came up in there is that, uh, it will be coming into long daycare, and I imagine at some point they're going to have to look at family daycare as well.
Uh, it doesn't mention family daycare in there at this point, but I dare say there's going to be something that comes through with that as well, um, is that personal devices that can take photographs will no longer be allowed in centre. Um, in, like, on the classroom. You can have it when you're in your work, your lunch break and all that sort of stuff, but not allowed them on, on the premise, like, in the classroom anymore.
And I think that's going to be a real difficult thing to, to process in family daycare. Um, and I just wonder your thoughts on what educators could potentially do to protect [00:21:00] themselves as well. But because at the end of the day, it's about protecting the children. Like, that's just what I come down to.
Yeah, I was about to say that. And also, like, my husband works in mining, right? And when you're on a mine site, or you're in a workplace where it's high risk, you can't have your phone on you. So, just because it's always been done the way it's been done, um, doesn't mean that we can't, you know, it shouldn't be changed.
Because the reason why change is happening is because it requires it. And I used to liken it, when I was in the police, and some of the older sergeants and senior connies would whinge about new rules. And they would be like, Oh, you know, we have to do this now. And you know, we're, we're being policed all the time.
Funny story police, but I know I would say, well, if you guys weren't, if you guys, people didn't stuff up, we wouldn't need these rules. Unfortunately, the majority gets. Uh, you know, gets policed [00:22:00] and, and impacted. Impacted because of the minority. Yeah. But ultimately the, the, the reason why we're here and the reason why we ha is for the children.
Yeah. We're here for children. Yeah. We've gotta remember that when we are doing, when these changes are coming in, what is the greatest, uh, what is the, the greatest impact? What is the greatest safety? What we don't want any young person, child in our care to be. Abused on our watch. Yep. Yep. And see this is the thing though.
Like we had an incident and I actually fired the educator, um, because she had a lovely setup in her backyard. Lovely girl, like beautiful person, blah, blah, blah. But had children in summer playing in a paddling pool and the children were naked and like health and safety. What if one of them pooed? Or weed, for a start.
What about the like, sun safe and sun smart, you know? Yeah, all the stuff, right? There was just so many things in it. And, [00:23:00] um, she posted pictures of that on her personal, on her private, sorry, on her private family group page. And I was like, remove them immediately. And she was like, why? And I'm like, like, God, like, why do you think, uh, remove them immediately?
Like, immediately. And, um, because I was like Was she young? Yeah. Young ish. Young ish. Yeah. And I was like, mate, you have no control over who is seeing that once it leaves your stomach. Of course. Exactly. You have no control. Someone, you know. A parent could send pictures over to England to their family because, oh look, it's the middle of winter over there, ahaha, look what so and so gets to do today.
And you don't know where those photos go from there. Exactly. So it's an immediate no, but she didn't understand and couldn't comprehend it and I was like, nah, see you later. See ya. I've got a thought process on that and I've had this conversation with [00:24:00] other employers of young people, like, Let's, let's look at the history of social media and, and phones.
Right. I got my first iPhone in 2010. So before that, we had those really, really low met, pixeled, pixelated photos on like those little. You know, dumb phones, if we call them now, Nokia or LG or whatever. Um, but the iPhone really switched it up. Right. And so we're looking at 16 years ago and any person who, and, and I've had these conversations with people in their early twenties, mid twenties, nearly thirties.
They were only teenagers when that started. And so what they grew up with versus what we grew up with. That, that they shared everything. We used to share everything. Some of the stuff that comes up on my Facebook, I cringe. I'm like, why was I sharing that thought? That is ridiculous. But we used to share, we used to share, everyone's like thinking back to like 2010, when we used to share, we [00:25:00] had really good lunch today, or why do I have to go to work or all of the really weird, random thoughts we used to post.
And then, um, and, but that's, if, if someone grew up. In those really formative teenage years of, of learning right and wrong and that I have young people now or mid 20 people who are struggling with the concept that it's not okay to share photos or to befriend the young people or to, you know, all of these things because of the, because of the culture of when they grew up with mobile phones and devices and social media.
Sorry. As for me personally, I think as an educator, we need to come up with policies that protect young people. It seems common sense to us because we grew up in a much different age, but it's not common sense to the current young people that we're dealing with. Yeah, that's a really, really good point because we do [00:26:00] get, you know, educators, as you say, in their thirties, still, um, who might be parents of their own and be parents themselves rather.
But they grew up in that space where it was, I mean, you see it now, little kids, you, you put the phone up and they pose because they're being taught how to do that. And that is a grooming, not that, you know, everyone at Teachers Inc. But that is a hundred percent one of those things that people get taught to do, you know, and, and, and it's, it's, yeah, it's really interesting and that's a really valid point, um, around having your social media policies.
I, I don't have a problem with the backs of heads and hands and things like that, but I think it's definitely something that my, my team and I are going to have to talk about when it comes to social media and what's appropriate to have on there and even appropriate photo. You know, because there is, and it talks about it in this, um, in this document about how families [00:27:00] push, and there's pressure on educators to provide videos and updates and this and that, and the amount of Pressure that is put on educators to update families as to what the children are doing in every minute of the day is undeniable and it was really interesting to see the government acknowledge that and I think again it comes back to this whole process of going back to what it was like back in the 80s.
Like why do we have to photo document everything? Like we don't. My daughter was going to full time daycare. in 2010 when I was first in the police. So she, I don't have any photo documentation. I have the one or two things I never had videos. I never had any of that stuff. It wasn't normalized back then.
Right. So, and I don't feel like I missed out. And I think the thing is, is that we, again, got to think about the current parents and current people that [00:28:00] are now parents, what they grew up with, and we need to educate people on that. So, as an, as you know, my account, and there's quite a few accounts on Instagram that talk about, The sharenting epidemic we have of sharing everything your child is doing and oversharing because we actually have a problem with the fact that we now and monetizing our children.
I mean, that's a whole nother conversation, right? But sharenting is a big issue. And one of the things that we're now seeing is with the introduction of artificial intelligence and, um, the, the deep fakes, if we don't know what a deep fake is, is where you can put. Because the computers and the, the programs are so good now, you can put a face of anyone on the body of anyone.
And it's not Photoshop. I'm talking video. We can make them look like someone else. And what we're seeing now is children's faces on other children. So there is actually. Again, on the [00:29:00] dark web, there is actually, um, people who are putting, who are requesting for a specific child's face, providing the image, and then having it put on child exploitation material of a child who is actually being abused, and, and it looks like that child.
For their own personal gain. And so, when we share videos and photos of our children online publicly, and without the safety of knowing who that's actually going to see that, we're actually putting our children at risk. And a lot of people aren't thinking about this yet, but it's something we need to consider.
With how artificial intelligence and, and all of these things are going, if your child's voice is online, if it's, if you're putting all of this stuff publicly, anyone could use that to then, in 10 years time, when they're trying to get there, to defraud them, or to steal their identity, or to do anything.
And this is the world we're going [00:30:00] through. This is where we're going. With all of this, that there will be a whole new range of abuse that can happen through, uh, identity theft, through, you know, um, deep fakes and, and, you know, child exploitation material. Your child might never ever get abused that way, but there might be a video out there with their face on it that looks like your child's being abused.
So it's, it's something that we need to consider is that I have stopped. Other than in my private life, with my private friends and family, I have stopped, and I stopped about four years ago, I've stopped sharing videos or photos of my daughter. And it was through my, through my experiences, through what I'm learning, that it is not safe to share your child's images online anymore.
That's heavy, man. That's, that's really like, that takes a lot to process because I know a lot of educators, um, build [00:31:00] their businesses that way. I know, you know, they, they share the things that they do because that attracts new families and new clients and all that sort of stuff. So, is there a safe? way to do it?
Like you were saying from the back of them, share what you're doing in a way. There is people who do it really well. There's, uh, one of the things I would say is, first of all, stop following people who overshare their children. Because what we're doing is we're normalizing the sharing of a child's life to public.
So I no longer like or follow anyone who shares their children's publicly. Um, I do follow people who share them with respect. So for instance, when you, when you remove the child's face or you, or, you know, put something over the child's face or you do it from the back of the room. But do you know what I think really sells people and their [00:32:00] businesses and especially in family daycare?
Personalized reviews and other families telling people how great you are. That is going to sell you more than anything you put online. So you can still share what you're doing or planning. Hey, I'm up all night getting this ready for tomorrow. Here's what I'm doing. This is what we're doing tomorrow.
Sharing the reviews of the families that have been through your. Child care through your center or through your family daycare, sharing, um, you know, how, what you're planning and sharing your views on oversharing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and totally making it a, a, a selling point too, that I actually protect your child's privacy.
I am going to, I am going to keep your child safe. I'm going to keep them safe from, you know, this potential. Did you know about this? This is what can happen. This is why we don't do this. Yeah, the whole thing of AI, like I, I use AI, I taught a class [00:33:00] on AI, uh, in early childhood education. I did explicitly say that you don't use people's names, you, you might use like an acronym for them or whatever, or, or even just their initials or whatever, but you don't use their names.
You've got to at all times be really mindful of the privacy, but I never ever, ever thought because I just don't think that way about. Those advances in AI and the detriment and it's just like it's mind blowing and I think for a lot of people that aren't exposed to this world, it's just like, you just don't even think about it.
Like, it's so innocently done that you just don't even think about it. And so I think it's really valuable information that you've just shared there. So you did a reel the other day, um, And I was impressed with the reel , why I messaged you. And I was like, it took me about one minute. I was like, yeah, this, I was like, [00:34:00] oh yeah, that sounds good.
Do . Yeah, no, it was, it was so good. But one of the things was that you, um, shared that there was a study that's just come out of Wales about how children are the highest offenders Yes. Against other children. So can you share a little bit about that? Sure. Because I know there's a lot of our educators here that have teenage children and, and it's.
You know, it's a bit of a minefield. [00:35:00] I want to just explain. First of all, it's 45 percent of all child sexual abuse is by another child. So, just take a deep breath on that one. So, And what I would say is that we need to look at it from the point of compassion, the fact that when we're talking about [00:36:00] children offending against children or children abusing children, they're children.
So, a lot of people get really up in arms at the idea that another child harms another child, but what we've got to remember is children are children, they're not evil, and they're not, they're not, they're not born to harm each other. They are learnt behaviours. From from certain aspects. So what I would say is this is that when I was first starting in the police in 2010 when a child harmed another child, we were would automatically believe that the child was a victim of child sexual abuse and we would investigate it like the child was a victim and we would try and find where that child was being abused, whether it was a family member, friend, etc.
But by the time I finished in the police in 2020, we would now see, I was seeing children harming other children because of pornography. Now, it was, [00:37:00] it was like it was a 50 50 chance that they might be abused or they might be seeing pornography. And we have a massive problem with pornography. In that children, uh, the average age of children seeing pornography for the first time is 8 to 10, but we know that's the average.
So then we've got lots of children who are seeing it younger than that. So what we're, what we're seeing is that children, uh, there's two categories then. A child who's being abused in their home or in their life, then goes on to harm another child. Or a child sees something that they don't understand, or that they think, I'm, I'm, I'm, that looks like fun, I'm going to do that.
Or whatever goes through their mind, and they harm another child. There's another third part to that. And children who have, and it's sad that this is the case, but children who are in a family and domestic violence situation are more like, are also at a higher risk of harming other children sexually. And.
So the other studies and [00:38:00] statistics we're seeing is that children, the, the children who are most likely to be harmed are aged between three. So they're the children who are being harmed by, and the children who are doing the harming are more likely to be aged between 10 and 14 to 16. So what we're seeing there is that our kids who are vulnerable other than three to nine, no, it doesn't mean that those age groups won't go on to harm or, and the children who are doing the harming are the pubescent aged children.
And, and in this age group, it's. Again, it's not boy versus girl or more boys than girls. We're seeing a large amount of girls harming children younger than them as well. So, so what, what does that mean? Like, that's a lot of information. What that means is that we can't afford to not be having protective behaviors and body safety education in our, in our early childhood education.
We have to do it because it, it protects our kids. It's inappropriate and appropriate. It's not appropriate to [00:39:00] do things like that. It's not, it's inappropriate to touch people like that. It's modeling consent in our early childhood education. It's talking to our kids, you know, someone said to me, Oh, you know, we shouldn't, um, why should we have to ask our kids if we're going to, you know, change your nappy or whatever?
I said, how about explaining what you're doing to them? Because that is showing them that you are giving that, you know, Hey, I'm just going to change your nappy and I'm doing this and I'm doing that. I'm going to put some cream on. I'm just going to be quick, etc. You know, explaining what we're doing because it's their body.
How about respecting body autonomy? Um, you know, and, and sharing what we're doing and in how long it's going to take, because we don't go to a physio, we don't go to a doctor and they just jab us with a needle, they're telling us what they're going to do. So we need to do the same with little kids and young people and, and so body safety and protected behaviours education a must consent and modelling consent a [00:40:00] must, you know, modelling or body autonomy and explaining those things using correct, uh, You know, body names, vulva, vagina, bum, anus, testicles, et cetera.
And having like those conversations with parents and saying, we use correct terminology in this, in our facility, because X, Y, Z, because again, we were talking before we press record about the fact that little young people don't have the language to explain that they're being abused a lot of the time, unless it's taught to them.
Yeah. And we need to teach it to them so that they know how to tell people because when I was, when I was interviewing kids, they couldn't tell me that someone had touched their penis or their bum or their vulva or the vagina or whatever. And I used to have to get them to explain what had happened. And that, and it can just leads to kids not being able to tell their parents, tell their care, care as educators.
And that's a safety thing. Sorry. You know, those are many, [00:41:00] those things are very important and in, in early education, I think they're the most important because they might not be getting it at home. Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent, but people don't want to talk about this stuff. Like it's a, it's a really uncomfortable conversation and if you haven't had an experience of it, you haven't had an experience of it.
So therefore you're probably a little bit in the dark or naive or whatever about the instances of it happening. So we mentioned protective behaviors. Is there anybody that you can re recommend we follow, or books or courses that are really good for early childhood education? Yeah, I'll, I'll obviously mention mine as well, but, um, I would highly recommend go going to, um, educate to Empower's website.
So, um, E two E publishing info is their website. And, um, Janine Sanders, who has [00:42:00] written the most amazing books for young. Children about consent, about protective behaviors, about body safety. Um, actually I have a couple of the books on my desk, but you know, um, let's see. Um, for anyone who's at home, this is one, this is a book for my body.
What I say goes, this is just one of her books and no means no. And in there, these are great books for educators. They're great books for anyone. And like secrets should never be kept. is one of her good books. Um, you know, let's talk about body boundaries, respect and consent. These are all young children books that you can read to them.
Um, and the one thing I would say is that, um, you know, in these books and she's, she's an amazing author for that. And there's a lots of books. And I actually had, I was about to put out a blog post about books for young people, for young children. So. Awesome. I'll do that. Um, obviously my book is written from a perspective of [00:43:00] education and empowerment.
Um, so my book's name is Operation KidSafe, A Detective's Guide to Child Abuse Prevention. And what it's going to do is it's just going to upskill your education around this stuff so that you're prepared for the conversations you need to have with children and with parents. So I highly recommend that one as well.
Yeah, of course. I mean, it goes without saying and we'll put all of these in the links in the show notes because I've already forgotten the e2e. publishing, whatever you before we click off and and I'll be able to put that in the show notes because it was something that wasn't. Like as prevalent, even five years ago, um, It all changed.
Yeah, which is when I was teaching with the children. Um, so it was definitely, I mean, we talked about, and I always had that whole thing of, is it okay if I change your nappy now? Um, is it okay if [00:44:00] I pick you up? Um, are you ready to hug? Would you like a hug? Would you like a high five? Would you like a wave?
You know, like those sorts of questions. Um, and, and, you know, when we model that to children and we model safe, like one of the, one of the protective behavior things is to be a safe adult. And what does a safe adult look like? And you know, we naturally assume that someone's safe adult is, um, you know, someone that lives in their house or, but some kids come from homes that there is no safe adult.
Yeah. So what is a safe adult? Well, a safe adult is someone who believes you, will help you, is available. So, you know, it's no use saying my, my grandma is a safe adult and she lives over in Queensland when I'm in WA. How, how's a little kid going to actually connect, connect with them or talk to them? Yeah.
Um, you know, so it's also about reminding, um, because As early childhood educators, you have the most [00:45:00] impact on their early childhood, on their early life, you know, you have such an impact, you have such a responsibility, unfortunately, as well, to, to ensure that, and I think for anyone who's sitting out there going, wow, this is really big and really scary and I don't, I don't know how to deal with it because it was not something I talked about with my parents and it's not something I've ever dealt with, embrace that.
Because you possibly could be the saving person in a child's life. Mm. I, you don't realise how important it is. Well what I always tried to do was make the children feel good so that the interactions with me felt nice in their body, not, because you know when something doesn't feel nice and like you've had, we've all had the experience with the creepy old dude.
You know, and you're like, and you see little kids, they're like, oh, no, they're early warning signs. Yeah. Yeah. So we've all experienced that. And that person could be [00:46:00] giving them lollies and trying to do all the night things, but it's not making them feel good inside. So always my thing was. You know, can I change your nappy now?
And when doing that nappy change, it was explaining what I was doing. Just going to take your pants off now. Oh, look, your sock got a bit stuck on here. Here we go. You know, and having that really dialogue. Yeah, that wholesome interaction. So we talked about children experiencing porn. Yeah. Bridge of six to eight and then obviously beforehand I've come across a few things on tik tok where people have been showing You know the games that kids have got on to that have been horrific, what do you think in your professional opinion as someone that's Got so much, um, experience.
What, what's your personal opinion about children being online? [00:47:00] Well, first of all, I, I just wanted to finish that last conversation with supervision. So if you've got young people, older people in, um, so older children in your home with your younger kids, they should be supervised at all times. I did want to think, finish with that.
Supervision is paramount. I totally agree. I, I, I truly, and I've had this conversation with parents and some parents get a bit upset with my, my opinion on this. I truly believe that young, so young adult, young people, like I'm talking 12 and up shouldn't be babysitting or supervising children under the age of 12 because, and I know a lot of parents are like, but I need to leave my kids alone with their older brother or sibling.
The problem is, is that we just can't, you know, It's not fair on those older kids, and it's not fair on those younger kids. So that's where I want to finish that one. Yeah, well, their prefrontal cortex has not developed. They don't have rationale. They don't have decision, like, [00:48:00] fully developed decision making abilities.
They're very much led by hormones, because all of those are raging around and racing around. And, you know, it's can come from a place of innocence in terms of they don't fully understand the impacts of what they're doing. And we, no one ever wants to think that their kid is ever going to do anything, but there are cases of that.
Um. Lots of cases. Yeah. Yeah. And the justification we used to have is, oh, kid's just being kids. Yeah, no. They're just, you know, and that's not true. No. There's lots of kids out there that don't go and harm, like sexually harm another child. Yeah. And the thing is, is that, I would, I would also say to that all, is that each individual child is different.
Yeah. And some children are super, super. Uh, mature, super, super, um, you know, they're great, responsible, you could trust them, like, you, they can handle [00:49:00] anything. I was one of those kids, right? I was one of those kids that could handle 20 kids underneath me and like, have them wrangled and fed and everything, right?
Uh, but, it's not, first of all, it wasn't fair on me to have to have, look after all these kids, but second of all, you can't always expect that each child, individual child, has that level of, you you know, responsibility and trust and supervision and whatever. I mean, it's just really important that we don't, we don't, what we had our experiences as young people, we don't put onto our kids.
Yeah. And, and look, if, if your kid happened to be the child that did something, at a time in their life when, when they're not responsible, they're not mature enough to be able to process what they're doing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that becomes a blight. on their life for the rest of their life. And wouldn't it be better if we could not put them in those positions so that [00:50:00] they can go through their life without experiencing that?
Um, yeah, so that's a really valid point. I don't know. There's a lot of educators. I mean, my own children used to play with, um, My, my kinder kids, you know, and it was so lovely to see and, and be part of that. That's okay, but as long as you're in the room with them. Oh, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, it was never, you know, I mean, my daughter was one of those kids that could manage, she would easily be able to change nappies and blah, blah, blah.
You know, but being in a family daycare setting, no, no, no, she never did. When our neighbor's kids came over and it was not when I'm working, it was completely something different, you know, and, and I would help her do that or supervise that. And then as she got more confident with it. She could do it, you know, but that was not in a paid setting, not in a work scenario and completely different and and also I would add to that no closed bedroom doors or doors, no, no [00:51:00] children in rooms with no one like without being able to see them, like just think about, yes, you're a family childcare and family daycare and you've got these little people under your wings.
But think about it from the perspective, this is your livelihood, this is your family, protect it at all cost. So think about what are some of the vulnerabilities, you know. Had children too, and it could, and it might not even be your two children or might not be your child. Could be two children in your center.
So, you know, like the thing is, is that you don't let them be in positions where they can be harmed or, you know, things can happen. Have them in open areas, have them supervised, you know, one at a time in the toilet. Those sorts of things, you know, in the, in the setting that that is a family child, family daycare, um, you know, not leaving them with anyone but you, because really the parents who've hired, like, who've entrusted you with their children, they're not [00:52:00] asking you to get your kid or your young person into help.
They're asking you to do it. Yes, exactly. So, so just protect your business like it's the most important thing, because it is. Yeah, well that's, that's often one of the things when we had, when we have visitors, the rule when there's a visitor in the premises, if the educator needs to go to the toilet, that visitor needs to step outside.
That's a really good rule. Or the children go with the educator, you know, that's what used to happen to me. It's just so, it's just so easy for people to abuse little kids. Yeah. And they're the most abused, so. Yeah, 100%. Let's move on to that next question about online and stuff. Yes. Look, I, I have made all the mistakes in my parenting.
My daughter's now 16 and she had an iPad at three because it was all fandangled and I lived in the Pilbara and I was like thousands of kilometers and we used to drive everywhere and it was so long. I [00:53:00] did everything wrong and if I had my time over again, she would never have got a device at that age.
Mind you. Because of my job, I was very, I still stuffed up, I still, she still saw things I wish she'd never seen. She still, I still, you know, she, she, but she was not allowed social media. There was gaming, she wasn't allowed to game in multiple player gaming or online gaming at all until she was way past 13.
Yeah. So I think the thing is, is that, um, in a centre where your children are under five, It would, I would be really specific about the fact that what they're on is educational only and it has no contact, like Roblox is really big and I know little kids on Roblox, like five year olds, four year olds.
Roblox is a multiplayer game. I wouldn't be letting my kid Play that game, but I know other parents who let their kids play that game, the game and what happens outside of your center is different to what happens [00:54:00] inside your center. If I was an educator, I'd be maybe even having your own iPad that they can share and use and it only loaded with certain things, but I don't know, like, for me, I really think it's, it's Okay.
What happens if, if you don't, haven't got that device locked down and they click on a pop up because kids are like little geniuses and Einsteins on devices today. They click on a pop up and it goes to porn. Yeah. You know, YouTube is full of porn because people slide it in between videos and, you know, instant replay and, you know, there's ABC Kids, there's, like, I'd rather today, you know, we used to get told off for watching too much TV.
I'd rather turn on a TV show. Yeah, right. Yeah, because it's, it's monitored. It's protected. It's not, you're not going to get some, yeah, you're not going to get, I'd rather turn on ABC Kids and play Bluey. Yep. Then, then [00:55:00] actually give my child a device. In fact, I encourage, I'm now telling my 16 year old, get off gaming and watch TV.
Yeah. Right. And then my parents were like, you're going to get square eyes. Yep. Yep. Yep. I, I was talking about it on a podcast the other day and I remember as a kid being like I don't know, three or something. I don't even, I must have been a bit older than that. I just have a clear memory of running down the hallway into the playroom, jumping over the couch and monkey magic because monkey magic was on, you know, that was, and, and that was what we got to watch.
And that's all about morals. And, but even then some of that, like I watched it back when I was 18 and I was like, Oh, I see where I got a lot of my belief systems from. A lot of this resonates with this, um, but some of what Pigsy used to do was a little bit questionable. Um, yeah, 100 percent when you go back and watch those shows.[00:56:00]
Oh, I watched Dead Fred at a, um, like a vacation care thing, thought it was movie when I was a kid. It probably went over your head. Yeah, but that's the stuff that gets normalized. I got it for my kids because I saw it as a DVD. That's how old I am. I saw it as a DVD for my kids when they were little and I was like, I dropped it, Fred, this is a great kids movie.
Yeah, I started watching it, went, what the heck? No way. I turned that off and was like, what on earth? Like I watched that in vacation care. I'll give you a resource for educators. It's called commonsensemedia. org. It's a website and on that website, it gives you reviews from both parents and kids and from the reviewers about every, like, not everything.
Games, videos, movies, shows. So there's reviews from both parents and children, [00:57:00] um, and, you know, it reviews, say, for instance, a new movie comes, comes out and you're like, oh, it says it's M, but, um, or it says it's PG, and then you go in there and you go, and you can read parents who've actually seen the video or the reviewers have actually reviewed it and said, it's PG, it has this scene in it that might be, It's Blah, blah, blah.
So, commonsensemedia. org is a really good resource for educators. If I was running my own family daycare, I would be saying no devices. I would be saying no devices. Yeah, we have a policy. Yeah, because, and again, like, it's okay to watch a movie. It's okay to watch Bluie. I watch Bluie. But it's, And I don't even have little kids yet.
I can't wait to have grandkids so I can watch Bluey with them. But um, you know, like, there's some really good little shows. There's some really good educational shows. Yeah. But we don't need a device. Like, there's too many devices in the world. How about we like, [00:58:00] let's, let's keep screen free until they're outside of our control and they're back at school.
Yes, that, that's exactly what I say too. And some educators won't come with our service because they're like, well, uh, you know, we watch Play School. And I'm like, Watch it on the TV, put a TV in your playroom. Yeah, but I don't even, I just think, you know, when you've got four children there and you're paid, you're not paid to sit them in front of a TV for half an hour.
Um, and I just think we're missing so much human interaction as it is because guaranteed those children are getting in the car and there's a device going in front of their faces. Yeah, it's way too, it's way too normalised and we know that, um, that I, I shared on my Instagram a couple of months ago of a dad who, and he's a really, it's actually a really good TikToker.
Um, he, I'm surprised he doesn't have as many viewers, but, um, I can't think of his Name now, Swoll Dad, S W O L Dad. Anyway, and he, he shares, um, [00:59:00] movies of him with his two little, he's got two toddlers, right? One, like, maybe a year and a half each, between them. And he's playing with them whilst playing, like, looking at his phone, and he's, and then he plays with them without the phone.
And they're side by side videos of them doing the exact same things, and what the child does. And it's, like, really It's really humbling or it's really like in your face when you see a child who a dad who's engaged and a dad who's not engaged and a dad who's present and a dad who's not present. And we know, we know, uh, I mean, this isn't my area of expertise, but we know that.
Children who are, um, there's, um, what's the name? Face syndrome. Oh my God. I can't think of the word. So there's a new syndrome that's been coined is, um, and I've got my phone up in front of my face. So when we look at our phone and we're just looking at it, we've got straight face, like we've got no emotion on our [01:00:00] face and what we're seeing is children don't know how to read.
Body language, because our parents are, they're in front of a phone and device and children from birth aren't able to see any emotions in their parents. And it's called, it's something face syndrome. And then we also know that children, that there's some sort of children who have less interaction online and their parents are more engaged and talking to them.
They're going to, the kids who don't have that are going to school with less than a hundred words. I'm talking kindy. 100 to 200 words. They're unable to speak. Yep. So, I'm not, and I'm not shaming any parents, I'm not shaming any educators, but we are going to, this is like the FASD, faith, um, what's it called?
Um, infant alcohol syndrome. This is the FASD of our, I can't think, fatal alcohol [01:01:00] infant syndrome or whatever it's called. This is, um, this is going to be the FASD or kids who are born with drug addiction. This is, this is going to, because it is, it's, it's as bad as it is. Because if we don't as parents. You don't give birth, and here's another thing, uh, and this is something I say in, in all of my presentations now.
We don't give birth to these beautiful little babies and look down at them. And remember that day when you held your baby for the first time, and how, like, you looked at it in awe of, you created that, right? You created that baby, and you, and you wanted to protect them with everything you had, and, and you wanted them to be safe, and you wanted them to be strong, and you want, and all of those thoughts, hopes, and prayers that you had for that little baby.
Yeah, we forget that when they get older we forget that as they get bigger as they get a lot We forget about it. They turn into nasty pasties. Right. Yeah. But, but I just want people to remember we didn't give birth to that kid and [01:02:00] go and sorry for the swearing. I'm going to fuck you up by not looking after you properly.
I'm not going to abide by not protecting you. Yeah. But ultimately, and then this is hard. I'm talking hard now and we, it's our job to protect our kids. And I'm hand on heart going to say I'm not the fucking perfect parent ever. Me neither. I have never been a perfect parent and man, do I get reminded of that.
But at the same time, I do my best and that's all we can do and but when we're in this situation with little kids, they need us to be there. 100 percent and this is what I talk about like when you, when you're looking at a screen into the way the brain processes images, it's in pixelation. So your brain is processing thousands of pic pixels to create one image.
Not only that, but there's music behind it, there's lighting, there's stage, like things are staged, there's different camera angles, like it's this full on [01:03:00] production, and yet when your children get to school or come to kindy, there's one person. Yeah. It's not the lighting. There's not going to be bored.
Yeah, 100%. They don't know how to be, they don't know how to be bored. They don't know how to be not entertained. They don't know how to, yeah. They don't know how to play. They don't know how to play. They don't know how to interact. They don't know how to use their imagination. So therefore they become these five second kids.
They do something for, I'm bored. There's nothing to do. And then they follow you around, they drive you insane. And it's all because they don't know how to play. And it's because these devices are stuck in front of them. And that's. It's really surprising and I'm not surprised, actually, by this whole lack of emotional engagement on faces.
Like my kids, I've got the eyebrows of all eyebrows and my face does not stop moving, you know, so they know with the look, I could just look at my children and give them an entire. Sentence. Dressing [01:04:00] down just from a look where they would instantly stop doing something. My own children. Yeah. Yeah. I'm talking, my daughter's the same.
She's like, mom, you've got the scariest face. And I'm like, I've got a lot, you know, but here's the thing, like we need to consider that. As, as childhood, early childhood educators, we need to consider the impact we're having on children. Yeah. We have so much power to impact their lives. As a police officer, I had so much power to validate and, and protect and help people, right?
And I took that really seriously. That was a really serious responsibility for me. And I took it seriously. Your impact on those children's lives could be instrumental in creating. And, and you only get them for a certain amount of time. So it, think about your motivations for why you've got them in your home, why you're doing what you're doing and realize that you have such an impact on that young person's lives.
You are, you could create the next. [01:05:00] Yeah. You could create the next, you could create a teacher, someone like you, you could be doing anything. And it all comes down to imagination and parents don't intentionally hand them, their kids a device. It's been normalized. We normally, it became normalized in the last 10, 15 years.
So what we can do is we can reverse some of that damage. And I'm not saying that there's not a place for devices. There is a place for devices, but we, we can, we can reduce the impact. We can normalize play. We can normalize imagination. We can create amazing, um, environments. My daughter actually said to me the other day.
So up until we moved to where I am because of my job. Um, before I left the police, we lived on a farm, like a six acre property with horses and chickens and dogs and, you know, sheep and you name it, right? And she was, she's an only child and, and she, um, she struggled with making friendships cause she's got ADHD and, and, um, [01:06:00] we've only just had, she's only just been diagnosed with autism.
And so she's always struggled like with connection and, but except for with me. And, um, but she said to me, mom, I want to have a. And I said, why is that? And she goes, because it was the best childhood I was outside playing. I was never on my device. You didn't let me have those things. And I thought she was on the device a lot, believe it or not, but she doesn't remember it like that.
She remembers playing outside, riding the motorbike. You know, having imaginary worlds in underneath the, um, trampoline, you know, you know, having forts in the lounge room. She remembers because I didn't have any rules about that stuff. I was like, go outside, play here. Do you want a sheet? Let's pin this here.
And, um, you know, so she remembers that and she thinks like that was her imagination and that was her time with her. And that's what you can create. Yeah, 100%. So we, we all, we had no devices for our kids. We had no TV, like, we didn't even have a TV until it [01:07:00] drove my mother insane enough that she would, she then went and bought us one.
Like, we didn't watch TV, Brian and I, for like seven or eight years or something, just. No need to like we it wasn't a part of our lives Then we got the TV and we we still just didn't plug it in and we didn't watch it And and then when we did watch it, it was family time. Like we would watch a movie together Yeah, Friday night.
Yeah Yeah, we would make popcorn and do it together, you know, and otherwise children need to be outside and I just think Where possible, yeah, where possible. And I think also we need to encourage children to explore their imagination, their artistic design, their, you know, there's lots of things that we can do.
But in early childhood What, what's, why couldn't we provide that safe space, that place for their imaginations to go wild? Yeah, I, I completely agree. I, I absolutely agree and I just think there's no [01:08:00] space for that when someone's paying you to be with their children too. I mean, and that might be an unpopular opinion, but I actually don't care.
Um, that's why I created a service because I could see what was happening out in mainstream and I was like children deserve so much more, educators deserve so much more, educators deserve to love what they do. Um, and yeah. And probably educators that don't have devices in their service probably have better, better behaved children because devices create.
Um, behavioural problems. Yep, disconnect. Yeah, so I would say that they would have more connected and better behaved children in their service. So it's like, there's win wins and then, you know, there's got to be a balance and if you're providing them a safe non device zone, when they go home and they've got devices, it's going to create that little bit of a balance for them, right?
Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, we, we, if we saw a bug out in the garden or a caterpillar or something, we want to know what it was, we'd come and look it up. Yeah. I'd use, I'd pull my phone up and we'd [01:09:00] look it up, but then it would go away and that was it. There just wasn't space for it because, you know, and I'm not on a massive block either.
I'm, I'm only a general suburban block, but we made the most of it. So. It's possible. Everything's possible. Yeah, listen, this was such a great way to wind this up. So it's not such a heavy conversation at the end. Christy, thank you so much for your time. I really, really appreciate it and value it. Um, your, your book again, um, can you tell us what that is?
Sure. So it's Operation Kid Safe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention. For those who can't, who don't have time to read it, I actually recorded it early last year on Audible. So it's on Audible and Spotify as well. So you can listen to it whilst you're chilling, you poor people. Um, or you can buy a copy on Amazon.
So it's available on Amazon. Amazing. And how can we follow you on TikTok? Because I love your TikTok handle. It's the TikTok cop 81 because I was born in 81 just so you know. Um, but [01:10:00] yeah, TikTok cop 81. Um, and I'm christymickv on Instagram. So sorry mate. My internet just stopped. Could you repeat your Instagram handle?
Kristy McVie. So just one word, Kristy McVie. Um, that's my name. Um, so yeah, so you can find me there or my business or my company is the Child Abuse Prevention and Education Australia, CAPE AU. Uh, so you can go to my website at www. capecape au. com and um, I've got some blog posts on there. Uh, some shares on there.
So, yeah, and, and, you know, I try to give people the information that they need to know without scaring them too much. Uh, so sometimes I don't do that so well, but, you know, I think following accounts like mine and following accounts, um, similar to mine are really important for people in this space. Well, that's how I found you, um, way back when on Tik Tok, you just come up [01:11:00] with this little Tik Tok thing that you did.
And I was like, holy dooly, I need to have this lady, you know, I need to talk about this. And I followed. I forgot that that's how we met. Yeah. And then I messaged you and I was like, ah, and I'm so grateful for you. Yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's been lovely to get to know you and to watch you blossom and, and I mean, because it's really, um, scary to put yourself out there like this.
And this message too is so important, but it's also so triggering. So people don't really want to talk about it, but you've, you've done a lot. You've opened my eyes a lot. And I know a lot of my listeners too, uh, have listened to your first podcast. So this one, we talked again about some really. triggering things, but I think we can't look away.
We just can't look away. And we have the responsibility, as you said, as early childhood educators to really make an impact and a positive beneficial impact. And at some point, we're going to be the person that has to make a [01:12:00] report. At some point, it's just the way it's going. So we need to arm ourselves and arm the children, um, so that we know the best course to take.
So Christy, you're an absolute star and an angel in my eyes. Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. Thanks mate. Right. [01:13:00]
